To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bprlist] Indianapolis Baptist Temple finally seized
From: "David C.
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:46:19 -0500

Well it finally happened. If you haven't heard already, on 2/13/01
Indianapolis Baptist Temple was raided by federal marshals and turned over
to the IRS. Following are two informative web articles, the second of which
is from the IBT church website itself:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-2001214225041.htm

http://www.indianapolisbaptisttemple.com/index2.html

A few points which struck me:

1) A quote from the Washington Times article: "The church called the money
paid to 45 regular workers "faith offerings," an amount that fluctuated
with church giving and annual budgets. Those workers and others paid their
own income taxes, the church said."

Interesting - the church workers were paying their taxes - yet the IRS
still insisted on penalizing this unregistered church because it would not
take taxes out for the employees.

2) Another quote from the Washington Times article: "The IRS began by suing
Mr. Dixon for about $56,453 in personal income taxes due from 1984 to 1987."

Amazing. President Clinton pardoned a dastardly crook like Marc Rich, yet
neither he nor President Bush could find it in their hearts to let
Indianapolis Baptist Temple off the hook. All this for what started out as
a measly $56,453 (which, along with some other debts supposedly, ballooned
to the final penalty of $6 million).

3) A quote from the IBT website: "The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that
Religious organizations are taxable and now the Court has said the New
Testament Church must pay taxes and come under control of the IRS."

What they're saying, basically, is that the IRS now seems to want financial
control over UNREGISTERED churches - the same kind of control they have had
over registered churches. This terminology strikes me as bizarre -
"unregistered" and "registered" churches - these are the same terms used in
China, which has heavily persecuting attenders of unregistered churches. Is
that where the U.S. is now headed?

4) Another quote from the IBT website: "Now the U. S. Supreme Court has
refused to hear the IBT case while hearing a case concerning professional
golfers being allowed to use a golf cart. To the Supreme Court, the issue
of Religious Liberty is less important than professional golf."

Sad but true! Knowing the poor track record of the Supreme Court (banning
of prayer in school, etc.), I guess this continuing opposition to
Christianity shouldn't surprise us... But be encouraged, Jesus is coming soon.

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To: bprlist bprlist <bprlist@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [bprlist] RE: Beheading...
From: Shophar_Sho_Good
Date: 14 Feb 2001 10:31:20 EST

I can't respond at length to this right now, but reference the passage in Rev.
that specifically calls out the mark taken on the "right hand" which could be
a logical extension or deferrement to the below since the left hand is
considered "unclean" to followers of Islam, SSG

********************

Dear ben Josef:

Thank you for your review of the book: Jihad in the West. In it you
state the following:

["And I have stated it many times before and will do so again, Islam
remains the only religion which beheads its enemies, which should be a
note of alarm and wake-up call for those who put faith in the New
Testament book of Revelation.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given
unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were BEHEADED for the
witness of Y'shua, (the Greek may imply "his" witness or not the
telling about Y'shua but the telling which he (Y'shua) himself said),
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with the anointed one a
thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)"]

As a Christian who is awaiting the imminent rapture of the Church,
before the start of Daniel's 70th week, I pray those who have not yet
accepted Jesus Christ as their savior will realize what will face those
who are alive during that week and who refuse to worship the beast. It
is indeed 'a note of alarm' and should be a wake up call to all those
who do not put faith in the Word of God, including the New Testament
book of Revelation, so, thank you, again.

God Bless you. Charlie Baker.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bprlist] IN OVERWHELMING 410-1 VOTE, HOUSE REAFFIRMS HISTORIC
From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:25:46 -0500

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:10:28 -0500
From: imra@netvision.net.il
To: imra@imra.org.il
Subject: IN OVERWHELMING 410-1
           VOTE, HOUSE REAFFIRMS HISTORIC
           U.S.-ISRAEL ALLIANCE; CALLS ON
           ARAFAT TO END THE VIOLENCE
           (Ron Paul (R-TX) voted against)

IN OVERWHELMING 410-1 VOTE, HOUSE REAFFIRMS HISTORIC U.S.-ISRAEL
ALLIANCE; CALLS ON ARAFAT TO END THE VIOLENCE (Ron Paul (R-TX) voted
against)

February 13, 2001
Contact: Ken Bricker Ken_Bricker@aipac.org(202) 639-5273

(Washington, D.C.) - The U.S. House of Representatives today passed a
resolution congratulating Ariel Sharon on his election as Prime Minister and
restating the United States' commitment to a secure peace for Israel.

H. Res. 34 was introduced by Chairman of the House International Relations
Committee Henry Hyde (R-IL), Ranking Minority member Tom Lantos (D-CA),
Rep. Ben Gilman (R-NY), Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-NY) and Rep. Eric Cantor (R-
VA). The resolution reaffirms the close bonds of friendship that have bound
the people of United States and the people of Israel together through
turbulent times for more than half a century.

The resolution also calls on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yassir Arafat to
use his influence and resources to bring the violence in the Middle East to an
end.

In praising the House for its action, AIPAC President Tim Wuliger said,
"today's resolution recognizes that, like the U.S., Israel is a vibrant democracy.
 In reaffirming the deep ties that bind Israel and the United States, the
resolution underscores the continuity of a relationship that transcends
political parties and individual personalities." In addition, Wuliger said that he
looked forward to Chairman Arafat's favorable response to Congress's call to
end the violence.

####

Consistently ranked as the most influential foreign policy lobbying
organization on Capitol Hill, AIPAC - The American Israel Public
Affairs Committee - is a non-partisan American membership organization
that seeks to strengthen the relationship between Israel and the
United States. Since 1954, AIPAC has been working with Congress to
build a strong, vibrant relationship between the United States and
Israel. Its 55,000 grassroots activists throughout the United States
work to improve and strengthen that relationship by supporting
U.S.-Israel military, economic, scientific and cultural cooperation.
Please visit our Web site at www.aipac.org

--------------------------------------------
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To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bprlist] Gamala Letter (Trying again)
From: "Patt A."
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:40:03 -0800 (PST)

**********************************************
     GAMLA: NEWS AND VIEWS FROM ISRAEL
**********************************************

Volume 2 Issue 13
Jerusalem, Israel20 Shvat, 5761
February 13, 2001
Inside:1. Small Group of Iranian National Revolutionary Officers in Gaza

==================================================================
Gamla HomePage: http://www.gamla.org.il/englishWant to subscribe? :
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/sub.htm
==================================================================

GAMLA Note: Because of a tech problem, this report which was supposed to have gone out yesterday, is going out this morning. This is after the killing of Massoud Iyyad. Here is what the Jerusalem Post has to say about the man, which cooraborates the report:Massoud Iyyad, 54, was a lieutenant-colonel in PalestinianAuthority Chairman Yasser Arafat's Force 17 presidential guard. A well-known weapons and drugsmuggler, he was also the head of a Hizbullah terroristcell, a senior Israeli security official said.Small Group of Iranian National Revolutionary Officers in Gaza

**************************************************************

DEBK Afile's military and Palestinian sources report a small detachment of Iranian Pazdaran officers, 3 or 4, has secretly arrived in Gaza. Theywere first sighted there in the last week of January. This is the firstknown instance of Iranian military personnel reaching Palestinian Authority territory since the Palestinian leadership established itself in Gaza in1994.Revolutionary Iran initiated relations with the PLO in the 70s, but fromthat day to this, the Palestinians never admitted Iranian military to theirturf or bases; nor did Tehran ever agree to post any. The relationship was marked by heavy mutual suspicion, especially between the two intelligenceand terrorism agencies never before by collaboration.Intelligence sources believe the Iranian officers entered Gaza along with groups of Palestinian and Lebanese fighters whom they trained at Shiite Hizballah bases at Baalbek in Lebanon's northern Bekaa Valley. They were apparently smuggled into the Gaza Strip by sea from Cyprus and Lebanon.Some may have even slipped in aboard Palestinian flights landing at Gaza's Dahaniyeh airport. Their arrival was sanctioned by Yasser Arafat and Dahlan's Preventive Security outfit has named a liaison officer to work with them.The Iranian officers and Hizballah guerrillas are careful to stay out of sight, keeping to the Jebaliyeh refugee camp in Gaza and Jihad Islami concentrations in Rafah and Khan Yunis away from Gaza's town centers.The Hizballah fighters brought in with the Iranian officers are believed to have carried out the two mortar firings against the Kfar Darom settlementin the last two weeks. Both incidents were first announced in Lebanon.

---------------------------------

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To: bprlist bprlist <bprlist@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [bprlist] Nepal begins search for new living virgin goddess
From: Shophar_Sho_Good
Date: 14 Feb 2001 13:44:02 EST

Nepal begins search for new living virgin goddess

http://www.dailystarnews.com/200102/14/n1021413.htm#BODY5

AFP, Kathmandu

They are not allowed to laugh or smile, are barely allowed out and almost
never marry. Nonetheless there will be no shortage of families hoping their
daughter is chosen to become Nepal's new Hindu living virgin goddess.

A new Kumari of Kathmandu, the young girl regarded as the patron deity of
the ancient Himalayan kingdom, is due to be appointed soon according to a
complicated and esoteric process.

The current goddess is now 12 years old, and with puberty marking the end of
a Kumari's reign, a successor is being sought now.

The new goddess will be installed at an "auspicious hour" during April, Tej
Ranta Tamrakar, head of the department which looks after the Kumari said.

"In accordance with the long-held practice, the incumbent Kumari of
Kathmandu is going to be replaced by a new one as the holy order of the
priests appointed to perform all ritual worships of the goddess have
perceived certain symptoms appearing in her making her unfit to continue in
the holy position," he said.

However not any girl can become the Kumari. Prospective candidates have to
come from among the Sakya clan, regarded as high priests of the kingdom's
Buddhist order, in particular from one of the Sakya families living in
Kathmandu's 18 Buddhist monasteries.

The fact that a Hindu goddess is chosen from among senior Buddhist families
shows how closely entwined the two cultures are in Nepal.

The processes involved in choosing a new Kumari can sound bizarre to those
unfamiliar with the rituals.

The candidate should be a toddler who is pure in all respects, with not even
a minor scratch to her body or a missing tooth.

Before her selection she must spend a night alone in a pitch-dark room to
prove her courage, as befits the divine person of a Kali, the Hindu goddess
of war.

And whoever is eventually chosen faces a serious-minded life for a young
girl.

The Nepalese believe the Kumari should never smile nor laugh during her
reign, as if she did it would mean great misfortune for the country.

Once installed the Kumari also has to live a life of seclusion, remaining
within the walls of the official temple-residence, the Kumari Ghar.

The Kumari only goes out 13 times in a year to attend certain public and
religious functions, to which she is carried in a special chariot, preceded
by two deities in human forms Ganesh, the god of success, and Bhairava, god
of war.

The current goddess, born in 1989 and installed on the "holy throne" in
1995, will soon be joining eight other "retired" Kumaris in ordinary life.

And although her duties of office will be at an end, it is highly unlikely
she will marry as most Nepalese believe such former goddesses remain sacred.

However the state provides for the retired Kumaris in the form of a generous
pension.

Despite the fact that accession to the role means their daughter will almost
certainly never wed, most parents consider it a great honour for them to
become the Kumari.

The worship of the Kumari began about 300 years ago, according to legend
when the last Malla King was playing dice with the Hindu Tulaja Bhawani
deity at her shrine inside the royal palace in Kathmandu.

During the game, the kind had "unholy thoughts" about the goddess, who saw
what he was thinking and disappeared.

The remorseful king begged forgiveness and the deity agreed to return, but
only in the form of a little girl living next to the royal palace.

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========
To: bprlist bprlist <bprlist@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [bprlist] RE:Tens and Twelves
From: Shophar_Sho_Good
Date: 14 Feb 2001 14:44:13 EST

To Rev. Daniels---When we ascribe inferred meanings to numbers found in the
scriptures, we run the risk of saying God said something God didn't say or
that God did something God didn't do (and vice-versa). Special punishments
will be earned by people who add to or take away from Revalations (Conversely,
special blessings are dispensed for those who read it). Those punishments are
nothing any of us want to endure. I choose personally, not to participate in
theological sparring over "divining" hidden meanings to biblical numbers. This
type of "arcane diversion" uses up precious energy is better used elsewhere.
Enough instances of clearly stated signs and seasons are found, to keep us all
busy, anyway. None-the-less, to each his own. We all are ultimately
responsible for our own actions and will give full account to the same. It is
each of our prerogatives to espouse and conjure any viewpoint or
interpretation we choose, wisely or unwisely. I couldn't agree more with your
experienced viewpoint (especially item #3), In Christian Love,...
Shophar_Sho_Good

After twenty-five years in the ministry, two books on second coming prophecy
and endless study on the subject I have come to some simple conclussions:
1. There are very few clear cut answers on the subject in the Bible (like it
our not)
2. There is no more contriversial topic I know of (as it should be)
3. None of it really matters any way, Christ will come when it is time,
untill then Christians have one and only one task. It is called the GREAT
COMMISSION.

In Christ,

Rev. Jim D. Daniels
Midland Texas

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========
To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bprlist] RE:Tens and Twelves
From: "Jim D
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:15:55 -0600

To Shophar,

A good sound policy. There is more than enough in the Bible to overwhelm us
without trying to find codes and secrets.
In Christ,
Jim
>From: Shophar_Sho_Good
>Reply-To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
>To: bprlist bprlist <bprlist@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [bprlist] RE:Tens and Twelves
>Date: 14 Feb 2001 14:44:13 EST
>
>To Rev. Daniels---When we ascribe inferred meanings to numbers found in the
>scriptures, we run the risk of saying God said something God didn't say or
>that God did something God didn't do (and vice-versa). Special punishments
>will be earned by people who add to or take away from Revalations
>(Conversely,
>special blessings are dispensed for those who read it). Those punishments
>are
>nothing any of us want to endure. I choose personally, not to participate
>in
>theological sparring over "divining" hidden meanings to biblical numbers.
>This
>type of "arcane diversion" uses up precious energy is better used
>elsewhere.
>Enough instances of clearly stated signs and seasons are found, to keep us
>all
>busy, anyway. None-the-less, to each his own. We all are ultimately
>responsible for our own actions and will give full account to the same. It
>is
>each of our prerogatives to espouse and conjure any viewpoint or
>interpretation we choose, wisely or unwisely. I couldn't agree more with
>your
>experienced viewpoint (especially item #3), In Christian Love,...
>Shophar_Sho_Good
>
>
>
>
>
>
>After twenty-five years in the ministry, two books on second coming
>prophecy
>and endless study on the subject I have come to some simple conclussions:
>1. There are very few clear cut answers on the subject in the Bible (like
>it
>our not)
>2. There is no more contriversial topic I know of (as it should be)
>3. None of it really matters any way, Christ will come when it is time,
>untill then Christians have one and only one task. It is called the GREAT
>COMMISSION.
>
>In Christ,
>
>Rev. Jim D. Daniels
>Midland Texas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1
>

_________________________________________________________________
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========
To: <bprlist@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [bprlist] Re: charlie
From: "John B
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:50:54 +1300

A response to charlie:

You say:
"As to your question: "Where does one find in scripture the teaching
that we are raptured before it?" I ask you, my friend, what does Rev.
3:10 mean to you? "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I
also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon
all the world, to try them that dwell upon the ..."

1. This letter is written to a church sufering persecution at the end of the
1st century. To apply it to the end time church may be acceptable or it may
not. The principle of lieral interpretation would have to be applied first -
i.e.; it is clearly literal to a church at the end of the first century. To
that church God promises deliverance from tribulation but (see below) this
did not mean escape from it rather preservation in it. The normal principles
of interpretation require that we bring the same lesson over to any symbolic
interpretations thus if we are to apply it to the end time church we would
hae to argue for preservation in rather than escape from.

2. The Greek here is normally to be translated "I will keep you in the hour"
not "from the hour". Thus it does not in the least mean deliverance "from"
the tribulation. Some translators do translate "from" but it is not the
normal meaning of the Greek.

You say: "The 12 tribes of Israel will not, I do not think, be reunited as a
nation until
the return of the Lord to establish His 1,000 year reign. "

But they are already united - the modern Israel holds representatives from
all 12 tribes not just from Judah.

As for the usage of 12, 10,7 my usage is fairy standard. I think Bullinger
in his classic book on Number in Scripture treats them this way.

Both 10 & 7 are numbers of completion but in different senses. Seven is
usually an indication of completion in the semnse of time, thus a fullness
of times, hence seven festivals of Israel prophecy the whole church age. 10
usually indicates a copletion in a numerical sense, thus 10 cubed, or 1000
indicates a perfect numerical completion. 1000x1000 indicates that which
cannot be numbered but is complete.

You say: Apparrecntly, that there is some sort of difference between the
church and the bride. I have heard this doctrine before but it is clear from
Eph 4 &5 that the church is the body of Christ and the church is the bride
of Christ. they are simply different metaphors for the same reality.

Revelation 21,22 decribes the completed bride of Christ -but she is
described in terms of a city, a community - a kingdom. And it is here that
the number 12 and 10 feature so repeatedly that it would be hard to deny
that 12 and 10 are significant numbers to do with the church in Revelation.
Ans as I pointed out the normal rule of interpretation would requie us to
first interpret REvelation by them interpretation it gives of itself. Thus
144,000 is clearly multiples of 12 &10 and we are then compelled to use the
12 & 10 interpretation found later in the book to elucidate menaing.

We must remember that Revelation is a New Testament book, not an old
testament book and we should where possible use New Testament
interpretations of the symbols.

If we do not interpret scripture by itself then we are doomed to invent our
own interpretations.

As for sealing whether in the forehead or not the clear NT teaching is that
it is the church who are sealed (Eph 1 2 Cor 5 Eph 4) and Revelation has
already identified in ch 3 (as I pointed out) that those who are sealed are
the overcoming Christian church. Again we are required to interpret
scripture against scripture - particularly in the same book - if we are not
to arrive at our "own" conclusions.

As for the rapture 2 thess 2 clearly outlines a course of events - and it
specifically and literally denies a pre tribulation rapture but I don't want
to go into that. I grew up beleiving in Pre Trib - but I find it totally
missing from scripture. It is only arrived at by ignoring the bits that
contradict it.

John in nz

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To: bprlist bprlist <bprlist@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [bprlist] Earthquake info
From: Shophar_Sho_Good
Date: 14 Feb 2001 15:38:08 EST

For Your Info-
The last 2 days have been a very active period, compare on the attached link
to prior periods.---SSG

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/bulletin.html

yy/mm/dd

01/02/13 03:04:35 3.5M <PAS> SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
01/02/13 03:42:38 4.5M C SOUTHERN IRAN
01/02/13 06:11:48 3.6M <PAS> SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
01/02/13 14:22:05 6.6M A EL SALVADOR
01/02/13 18:28:09 4.9M B RYUKYU ISLANDS, JAPAN
01/02/13 19:22:06 4.6M B EL SALVADOR
01/02/13 19:28:27 7.3M B SOUTHERN SUMATERA, INDONESIA
01/02/13 22:27:15 5.4M B SOUTHERN SUMATERA, INDONESIA
01/02/14 01:39:30 5.3M B SOUTHERN SUMATERA, INDONESIA
01/02/14 03:38:17 5.1M B SOUTHERN SUMATERA, INDONESIA
01/02/14 04:45:35 5.6M B SOUTHERN SUMATERA, INDONESIA
01/02/14 07:10:15 4.8M A NEAR EAST COAST OF KAMCHATKA
01/02/14 09:12:57 4.4M B OFF COAST OF CENTRAL AMERICA
01/02/14 13:36:40 5.9M A KURIL ISLANDS
01/02/14 14:04:28 5.6M B SOUTH OF FIJI ISLANDS
01/02/14 14:17:02 5.9M A SOUTH OF FIJI ISLANDS
01/02/14 18:10:02 4.9M A SOUTHEAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN

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To: Jim Daniels <barbjld@hotmail.com>
Subject: [bprlist] Tens and Twelves, again.
From: Pam
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:32:17 -0500

Dear Jim:

    I have been given the opportunity, Jim, to study the subject of the
'end times', from the Bible, in great depth and it is my humble opinion
that 'clear cut answers' are there, when all other related scriptures
are taken into consideration. I know from personal experience it is a
very controversial subject but that only makes it all the more
interesting.. I also realize, as you point out, Jim, that none of it
really matters to those who, God willing, will be caught up before
Daniel's 70th week begins. However, a knowledge of what will happen
during the endtimes will be of vital interest to those who are not
caught up. Do you not think that it behooves those who do study God's
word to provide those who will be left with that knowledge? In
addition, knowing what will take place makes it possible for us, today,
to look for and identify developments on the world scene that must
precede the beginning of the 7 years and, knowing what those
developments must be, the knowledge will enhance our watching for the
return of the Lord. Praise the Lord!

    The scripture that is continually before me, Jim, is "Study to show
theyself approved unto God. A workman that needeth not to be ashamed."
The study, I think, is study in His Word and this tells me that part, at
least, of the Great Commission you refer to is doing just that, studying
- to obtain God's approval, not the approval of man. He has warned the
world of what is to come, through His word, but if no one interprets
that warning and passes is on, the warning will be in vain.

    God Bless you. Charlie Baker.

1. There are very few clear cut answers on the subject in the Bible
(like it
our not)
2. There is no more contriversial topic I know of (as it should be)
3. None of it really matters any way, Christ will come when it is time,
untill then Christians have one and only one task. It is called the
GREAT
COMMISSION.

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To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bprlist] terrorist attack aftermath
From: <owner-bpr@philologos.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:47:29 -0500

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Send reply to: <benyosef@torahvoice.org>
From: "ben Yosef"
To: "ben Yosef"
Subject: terrorist attack aftermath
Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:01:44 +0200

Shalom,

First things first:

Please pray for the families of the eight persons killed in the
terrorist attack bus crash yesterday and the 23 wounded. The
fatalities are:

St.-Sgt. Ophir Megidish, age 20, from Kiryat Malachi
St.-Sgt. David Iluz, 21, Kiryat Malachi
Corp. Alexander Menevitch, 18, Ashkelon
Sgt. Julie Veiner, 21, Jerusalem and Kibbutz Zikkim
Corp. Yasmin Krisi, 18, Ashkelon
Sgt. Rachel Levy, 19, Ashkelon
Sgt. Kokhava Polonsky, 19, Ashkelon
Simcha Shetreet, 30, from Rishon Letzion

NOTE: The report below is pieced together from the morning's English
newspapers including the Jerusalem Post and Ha-Aretz, and from the 7
a.m. Kol Yisrael radio report and breaking CNN TV reports. I
apologize if transition is lacking but I had to do it hurriedly.

ben Yosef

GILO, Jerusalem -- The entire unannexed territories have been closed
to Palestinian traffic sealing their borders, closing the Gaza
airport, and blockading Palestinian cities and towns following the
terrorist bus crash yesterday at the Azor Junction near Holon which
killed 7 Israeli soliders -- 4 women and 3 men -- and a civilian and
injured 23 others, including three women soldiers who are listed in
critical condition this morning. Even so, two roadside bombs were
detonated early this morning on the Tunnel Road south of here and
Palestinian gunfire on motorists traveling the main access road into
Jerusalem from Hebron erupted for the third straight day. The Tunnel
Road was closed again this morning.

DebkaFile reports that Israeli security leaders have concluded that it
will be necessary to re-occupy parts of Beit Jala and Al Hader, the
Palestinian Authority villages from which the shooting has repeatedly
originated into Gilo and on the Tunnel Road. Other sources report that
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is planning measures against the PA
leadership, including limiting Arafat's freedom of movement,
encouraging the PA to replace him, and targeting leaders of the
violence.

In other violence last night and early this morning, a Kiryat Arba man
was moderately injured by Palestinian gunfire while driving in the
Hebron hills near Sussiya. Other incidents were reported in Gaza and
near the Egyptian border. The IDF also reported heavy exchanges of
gunfire between soldiers and Palestinians north of Kiryat Arba but
with no report of injuries. The army was forced to close the road
between Carmel and Samoa.

Since the terrorist bus crash, the IDF also has stripped all 72 senior
Palestinian VIPs of their special travel permits, effectively
confining them to the areas where they live. Chief of General Staff
Lt.-Gen. Shaul Mofaz condemned Hamas, which took credit for the attack
carried out by a Palestinian who had been hired by the Egged bus
company for the last five years as a driver transporting Arab workers
to and from the Gaza Strip. The driver, who remained hospitalized this
morning under heavy guard awaiting formal charges, plowed his bus into
the crowded Israeli bus stop. Mofaz also targeted the blame against
the Palestinian Authority for refusing to quell incitement against
Israel.

The IDF also issued an official warning of more attacks urging the
population to be constantly alert.

"I hope that the Palestinian Authority does what needs to be done in
order for Israel to be able to allow Palestinians workers who want to
work here to come back to their jobs," Mofaz said. "And if not, I
presume that this closure will continue."

The Chief of General Staff said the IDF views the bus attack as
"crossing the line." "This is the direct result of the encouragement
of terror and violence by the Palestinian Authority," Mofaz said.

After crashing into the crowd, the bus continued southwards towards
Ashdod, followed by police vans shooting and chasing after it. The
driver was finally caught in Gan Yavneh, after he crashed into a
truck; the truck driver jumped out safely just in time. The driver was
taken to a nearby hospital, and was still unconscious at last report.
Preliminary checks found that he had no prior connection with any
terrorist organization or with the Fatah/Hizbullah leader killed by
Israeli forces yesterday.

Chief Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau called today upon the Israeli public "to
maintain human dignity and that of the country, and not take private
initiatives of vengeance, despite the fact that these are natural
instincts of citizens [at this time]." Referring to the venomous
anti-Israeli incitement of the Palestinian educational system, Rabbi
Lau said, "These are not wild weeds - but rather entire greenhouses
planted with poison and hatred." Voice of Palestinian Radio opened its
news reports today with mention of the "poison gas that Israel uses
against the Palestinian nation," as well as reports from the funeral
of Masoud Ayad, the Fatah/Hizbullah leader killed by Israeli forces
yesterday. Calls for additional and more severe acts of terrorism
against Israel also were sounded at the funeral.

The intifada leadership, comprising representatives of Fatah, Hamas,
Islamic Jihad, and others, announced that its members would continue
to carry out terrorist attacks "in response to the murder of the
Palestinian nation."

PLO Leader Yasser Arafat did not condemn the attack until confronted
by U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell with "strong language." Arafat
initially said the attack was the direct result of =93increased Israeli
aggression against the Palestinian people.=94

In Ankara, Turkey where Arafat held a news conference, said he opposes
all violence, but dismissed the idea that the "traffic accident" was
intentional. "Whatever the cause, we are against the use of violence
and of course killing people. It happened on their territory, they're
investigating and that's it as far as I'm concerned," he added, as his
comments were translated into English by Palestinian Authority
Planning Minister Nabil Shaath.

The Israeli embassy in Ankara issued a sharp response, with spokesman
Gilead Cohen saying: "We see Arafat crying crocodile tears over the
violence. He says he wants peace. If he wants peace he should put the
terrorists back in jail and stop attacks on innocent Israelis." He
termed Arafat's reference to "a road accident" as ridiculous.

Earlier, while in Jordan, Arafat sang a different tune. Arafat said
the attack was a response to Israel's military escalation against the
Palestinians. "What is happening is an Israeli military escalation
that has direct consequences on the feelings of the Palestinian
people," he said. "If the military escalation continues and the use of
internationally banned weapons, no doubt it would be a difficult
position for everyone."

He also repeated his accusation that Israel used poisonous nerve gas
in recent confrontations in Gaza. Israel has repeatedly denied the
claim.

Arab MK Azmi Bishara, said that the attack today was the result of the
"Israeli conquest." In addition, PA Secretary Ahmed Abdul Rahman said,
"The Barak Government should blame itself because violence is answered
with violence... the aggression of the government of Israel against
the Palestinians pushes them to acts of desperation."

MK Rabbi Chaim Druckman (NRP) complained to the Knesset Ethics
Committee that "MK Bishara represents the enemy in the Knesset=85 He
enjoys all the benefits of our democracy, and takes advantage of them
to harm us."

Other Reactions:
President Moshe Katzav: "Under no circumstances will we let Israeli
blood run free, and the State must protect its citizens and national
security under all conditions. We will never adopt the same standards
as our enemy - we would never dare to open fire on a school bus of
children, or to cruelly lynch two citizens, or to take a bus and
purposely mow down a group of people - but we are determined to fight
with all the means to protect our security. We will not allow
terrorists to walk around freely, inciting and giving orders to others
to shoot and kill. The Palestinian leadership bears the full and
direct responsibility for today's attack, with its incitement, its
wild reactions against Israel, its lack of willingness to act to calm
the situation. Arafat has not called on his people to stop the
bloodshed - instead, they all hear his wild incitement, and see it as
a green light to carry out more acts of this sort."

Prime Minister-elect Ariel Sharon said that the attack today shows
that for the terrorists, there is no difference between the areas of
Judea and Samaria and the rest of Israel.

Outgoing Prime Minister Barak sharply condemned the attack, and
convened a meeting of his security advisors. It was reported prior to
the terrorist bus crash that Barak was considering reneging on his
plans to resign in order to continue in the post of Defense Minister.
About today's murders, he said, "This is further proof that the
terrorists look for every way to shake our determination. We are a
small but strong nation, and nothing will shake our drive and our hold
on this land. I tell all the terrorists: we are strong, we are
fighting for our very right to establish our Jewish nation and live in
this land, and we will fight for this right as much as we have to."

NRP leader Rabbi Yitzchak Levy called on the various parties to
shorten the negotiating time, and to agree at once to establish a
unity government.

MK Tzvi Hendel (National Union-Yisrael Beiteinu) demands that Prime
Minister-elect Sharon assume the Defense Minister's authorities, "in
accordance with the will of the electorate." MK Sha'ul Yahalom
(National Religious Party) calls on Sharon to speedily conclude the
formation of the government, and to implement an "aggressive defense"
policy.

Outgoing Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami has a different view. He said
today that the only way we can reach an agreement with the
Palestinians is with international intervention: "We must stop telling
ourselves that we are the strongest nation in the Middle East, and
realize that we cannot fight against the anarchy that presently exists
in the Palestinian areas, on our borders. We need an agreement with
very strong international enforcements."

A large crowd of angry citizens from nearby Yafo and Holon arrived at
the scene of the attack shortly afterwards, demanding that effective
security measures be taken against Yasser Arafat and his terrorists.
The police arrested one man who, they claimed, wished to strike at
Arabs working nearby.

American President Bush instructed Secretary of State Powell to ask
Arafat to take immediate action to end the violence. Likud MK Moshe
Arens, currently meeting with American leaders on behalf of Prime
Minister-elect Sharon, reported to Sharon that Bush supports stopping
the talks until the PA ceases all violence.

Meanwhile, the results of a poll asking the question: "How should the
new government approach negotiations with Arafat?" were released by
Arutz Sheva: Continue the negotiations with Arafat under fire 1.83%
Continue negotiations only after the attacks stop 12.45% After total
halt of attacks for at least 6 months 33% Never negotiate with Arafat
- he's a terrorist 13.35% It's wrong to negotiate over the Land of
Israel 39.37% Total Votes 3221

Sheikh Hassan Yussouf, Hamas spokesman in the West Bank, said his
organization did not know who carried out the attack, "but given the
operations of the Israeli forces," he said, "this sort of action
should have been expected. Such attacks will continue so long as the
rights of the Palestinian people are denied. We will continue with the
intifada and teach the Israelis a lesson that they learned in south
Lebanon," he said.

A senior Palestinian security officer predicted that violence will
only get worse. He admitted that the PA was doing nothing to prevent
terror and quell the violence.

The Jerusalem Post reported this morning:
The driver, Khalil Mohammed Abu Ulbah, 36, from the Sheikh Radwan
neighborhood in Gaza, a part-time Egged bus driver for five years,
transported Palestinian workers to and from the Gaza Strip daily. The
father of five returned to his job two weeks ago, after five months of
unemployment.

Like all Palestinian workers who receive permits, he had received
security clearance from the General Security Service. Criteria include
being married with children, and participating in the "constant work"
project established by Coordinator of Government Activities in Judea,
Samaria, and the Gaza Strip, Maj.-Gen Ya'akov Or, that approves the
entry of up to 16,000 laborers during times of emergency.

His 39-year-old brother Hussein said Abu Ulbah was affected by
Israel's killing of Palestinian children. "Today's incident was a
natural reaction," he told reporters. Another brother, Rami, told
reporters, "The Israeli daily aggression and killings are sufficient
motives for acts of violence against Israelis in self-defense."

Both denied that Abu Ulbah had links to a terror organization, despite
reports that he was affiliated with Islamic Jihad. Relatives said Abu
Ulbah had been distressed over financial difficulties.

The Abu Ulbah family is well known in Gaza and operates a local bus
company. With the release of his identity, at first Palestinian
security officials cordoned off the area outside his home to prevent
reporters from speaking to relatives.

Last night Khalil Mohammed Abu Ulbah was handed over to the GSS for
questioning after undergoing surgery in the Kaplan Hospital for wounds
he sustained in the attack and subsequent chase.

Israeli security officials said yesterday's attack will necessitate a
review by Israeli security officials of the criteria regarding the
issuing of permits to Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza
that want to work in Israel.

Several hundred angry Israelis gathered yesterday morning at the site
of the terror attack at the Azor junction near Holon called upon Prime
Minister-elect Ariel Sharon to prevent Arab workers from entering
Israel for work.

A few meters down the road angry protesters gathered, shouting, "Death
to the Arabs."

A group of men at one point decided to take revenge on Arab workers at
a building site across the street. Police stopped them before they
reached the building site, urging the demonstrators to leave.
Neighborhood residents said only Thai workers were working in the
area.

The angry crowed scuffled with police a bit, but the scene did not
turn violent. "We don't want them in Israel... Why are they [the
police] pushing us away? The Arabs kill us, why can't we do to them
what they do to us?" a Holon man named Victor shouted in anger.
Several young men accused the police of "working for the leftists."

"Under Ariel Sharon we will deal with them the way they deal with us,"
one man shouted. Another young man blamed Prime Minister Ehud Barak
for the lack of security. "Even the Arabs don't understand why he kept
making [concessions] while the Arabs are killing us," he shouted.

Several people repeated that they felt insecure, since there is no
knowing when and where the terrorists will strike again. "First it was
the Dizengoff shopping mall, now it's in Azur," one man said, shaking
his head.

Gaby Ben-Porat, also from Azor, was one of the few at the scene who
did not blame Barak's peace policy for the attack. "What can Sharon do
differently, is he a magician?" she asked. Only a peace agreement will
end the circle of violence, she reasoned. "The problem is that they
don't want peace... We were ready to give them their state, but they
also ask to return to Israel, but we can't accept that, it's the only
place we have," she said.

Alise Osil, the Likud representative from the Azor Municipality,
justified the angry crowd's calls for revenge, saying the attack has
left them insecure and shocked.

She called upon the government to prevent all Palestinians from
entering Israel for work. "Enough is enough, we let them come to work,
and they kill us... We must put a border between us and them and
forbid them to enter Israel, let them find work inside the Palestinian
areas," she said.

------- End of forwarded message -------

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To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bprlist] Ten and Twelve and everything in between....
From: owner-bpr@philologos.org
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:37:02 -0000

Allow me to talk about something I'm very passionate about. Every
now and then I share my views on this topic. Some agree with me,
others don't. It's not my intent to get you to agree with me,
however. What I'm hoping to do by sharing my viewpoint is to create
an environment on the list where others won't feel intimidated or
backward in sharing their biblical studies, questions or ideas that
may deal with "controversial" subject matters. If you wish to
comment on what I've written please feel free to correspond
privately. A list discussion on this topic will not be allowed
however.

With every discussion list I've ever been on, someone will bring up
their studies or interest in biblical numerology and *without*
exception another list member will quickly caution
against "speculation" or "divination." They will explain that the
bible just isn't clear on those types of things and one shouldn't
delve into such areas because "the Scriptures do a good enough job of
explaining itself" and where it doesn't -- "well, we just shouldn't
go there because it probably isn't important anyway." "If the bible
doesn't explain it, then we should just leave it alone and let God
explain it when we get to heaven." "There's enough of the obvious
signs to keep us busy, why look for the hidden stuff?" "Your time
can be better spent doing other things."

Quite frankly, I don't understand that kind of attitude. It saddens
me. And to be honest, it's also a little discouraging.

God didn't throw out words and numbers just to fill in space, did
He? Is it possible that the bible is one-dimensional? That
everything known to us is right there on the surface -- no digging
allowed? Or is it just a coincidence that you have to crack open an
oyster and mess around in the slimy insides to get the pearl? Is it
just a coincidence that diamonds and oil deposits are hidden in the
earth -- that tons of rock and mud have to be moved to get to them?
Is it just a coincidence that the most intricate and most complicated
aspects of the human body are seen only with an electron microscope?
The same Being that made plants, animals and all living things
beautiful and simple on the outside and unimaginably intricate and
sophisticated on the inside, is the same Being that breathed the Word
into existence -- beautiful and simple on the surface and -- dare I
say it? -- unimaginably intricate and sophisticated on the inside.
But while the Designer made it okay to dig deep in the earth for its
hidden treasures, He did not intend for that same digging to go on in
His Word?

No, I don't believe everything that God would like for us to know is
right there on the surface. I think some things are hidden and some
things will be revealed only to those that are actively seeking.
God's breathed Word created each individual pattern in a snowflake.
I believe when God breathed the Scriptures into existence that He did
the very same thing -- patterns and all. God gave us inquisitive
minds. We question, we seek, we explore by nature. God did not
intend for those attributes to be used only on secular matters.

I personally believe that God rewards those that put on their old
blue jeans, gets out their spades and work gloves, puts a helmet on
and starts digging. If you only want to go exploring on the surface,
then that's up to you. Others may want to go a little deeper. There
are a lot of unexplainables in the bible, a lot of things we don't
know and probably won't know until Christ returns and explains them
to us. But to believe that the bible is just one-dimensional, with
no depth is just plain silly.

Just to clarify, however, and this paragraph is very important and
foundational to what I believe. The digging that I'm speaking of is
not associated with personal knowledge. It's not about beating
yourself on the chest saying "look what I found," "look what I
know." And it's not about speculation or guesswork with no
foundation. It's not about magic or the occult. It's not about
writing books or preaching sermons. It's about a knowledge that
leads you to glorifying, praising and worshipping God in spirit and
in truth. It's about building on what you know, on what God has
shown you. It's about a love so deep it hurts. It's about a hunger
that won't go away. The more you dig, the hungrier you get. And to
*not* search for more of these hidden treasures, these intricate
patterns, these threads that are woven through every book of the
bible, these very faint (and often fleeting) glimpses of God and His
handiwork -- to *not* search for these... well, it would be
unthinkable! Why am I not satisfied with what's on the surface?
Because I know God is deeper than that and that He has things He
wants to show me. Am I afraid of inferring a meaning to something
that God didn't intend? You mean that everything you think you know
and understand about God now is correct? Do the various
denominations give you a hint that you could be wrong?

A list member writes: "There are very few clear cut answers on the
subject in the Bible (like it our not)." Did I mention that half the
fun comes in taking the journey? So I don't find a gold nugget every
time I go on a treasure hunt. I'm having a blast just digging! The
more I study, the more I realize just how little I know. The deeper
I dig, the bigger my God gets. Is there something wrong with that?

As far as I know and am able to discern there has been nothing
presented on this list in the way of numerology or biblical patterns
that in any way hints that it is anything but biblical. I may not
understand it all, but when it points to God and gives Him the glory,
I'm not going to shoot it down. If you don't want to explore with
us, that's fine. But please.... don't be discouraging.

Thanks for hearing my side of the story... <g>

(Owner/Moderator -- to those that are new to the list and who
may wonder why I'm spouting off. <g>)

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To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bprlist] Indianapolis Baptist Temple finally seized
From: Sam O
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:44:55 -0500

Bro. David,
Has anyone thought of contacting the Rutherford Institute? They are
experienced in such matters and may help, even aftermath!

Spread the Word Ministry
Evan. Sam O. Pickering, Jr.
P. O. Box 1197
Johnson City, TN 37605-1197
423-928-5326
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To: bprlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bprlist] The Departure of Christians
From: Pam
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:57:46 -0500

The Departure of Christians

The Departure of Christians will take place, I think, when the Lord
appears in a cloud to call His bride home. The Bible tells us it will
happen in ‘the twinkling of an eye´ therefore it will be an
instantaneous exodus, worldwide. It follows that people in the areas of
the world which are in spiritual darkness will not be aware of any major
change, because there will not be very many departures. In other areas
of the world, areas with a large amount of spiritual ‘light´, however,
the departures will be very noticeable and disruptive. In such areas
the departure of Christians will have a great impact, both economically
and spiritually. Very soon thereafter, I think, the economies of all
the nations of the world will be impacted.

In some areas of the world, today, ‘Christians´, of any denomination,
are an aggravation to the ruling regime. In such areas, I think the
departure of Christians will be welcomed, but in other areas the
departures will cause confusion. We know that God works in the affairs
of man and God will usher in the last week of Daniel´s 70 weeks of
years, I think, with the departure of Christians. The countries of the
West; Western Europe, (including Great Britain) and most of the Western
Hemisphere will be most affected and I think God will, following the
departure, finalize the 70 weeks of years that were determined on
Daniel´s people, the Israelites - the weeks that were stopped at the end
of the 69th week, when Israel rejected Jesus Christ. God will then,
following the 7 years, complete His pre-millennial plans for the world
and will set apart the remnant of all nations, the human seeds, who will
enter the millennium in their natural state. Finally, He will draw the
armies of the nations of the world to the valley of Megiddo, where Our
Lord, Jesus Christ, will destroy them.

 Since God does not wish any to perish, I think He will time the
departure of Christians to make the greatest impression on mankind.
This, I think, will be effected by having the departure occur during
daylight hours in the western world, perhaps 12 noon at a point in the
Atlantic midway between the west coast of Europe and the east coast of
North America. Many people will be awakened ‘spiritually´, in Europe
and Africa, by the departure of Christians but I think the greatest
‘awakening´ will be in the Western Hemisphere. Asia and the Orient will
not be overly influenced, spiritually, but the economies of all nations
of the world will suffer. I think the economies of nations of the world
will be in turmoil with the result that the economic ‘kings´ of the 10
regions of the world will be in a position to assume control of world
affairs. That, in turn, will give rise to the ascension of the ‘united
nations of Europe´, the EU, to the position of World Empire. At that
point the EU will be driving two of the four engines of globalization -
economy and empire. The technological engine will still be driven by
the US but I think the economic power of the EU will be enough to draw
technological talent away from the US, and elsewhere, into the EU empire
so that, by the mid-point of the 7 years, it will be driving three of
the four engines - technology, economy and empire - as the US has been
doing for some years. The spiritual engines, however, will continue on
different tracks as they have been since their inception.

 There were and still are, a number of spiritual engines. The oldest, I
think, is Judaism. Others are Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism,
Christianity, Islam and the Primitive Religions. The Christianity
engine was driven for a time by the British Empire and, following that
by the US. The US drove the Christianity engine for some years but
neglected to maintain it and it developed a leak in the boiler. It lost
its steam and, for some time, it has been sitting on a side track.
Other spiritual engines have been operating elsewhere in the world, some
for a long time, such as: Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Judaism and
Islam

The spiritual engines of Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Confucianism have
been, and still are, content to service the people who are native to
their lands. Islam, was the most powerful engine for a short time
before the crusades but it was forced to return to its Arabic base.
Islam, however, after centuries of ‘local´ operation, has been spreading
rapidly. I am told that, from the second half of the 20th century
Muslim migration and conversions to Islam have been consolidating a new
human Islamic presence: Europe, 20, 000,000 - 10,000,000 in Western
Europe, exclusive of Turkey - 50,000,000; the US 6,000,000 - they
outnumber Jews - and growing. Following the departure of Christians
the engine of Christianity will be no more and I think the World Church
will become the spiritual engine of the Western World. I think it will
include some sects of Islam but not all and I think it will get most of
its ‘steam´ from Rome. However, the scriptures tell us the World
Church, the ‘whore´, will be ‘hated by the 10 kings´ (Rev.17:15-16), and
they will destroy it at the mid-point of the 7 years. From then on, I
think, the remaining sect(s) of Islam will be the only spiritual engine
allowed to operate in the western world. It is a fact the ‘nation´ of
Islam has, in the past, beheaded those who refuse to become Islamites,
this, I think, will be the case during the end times. (Rev.20:4)

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the three Abrahamic creeds in the
world. All three trace their spiritual origin to Abraham and all three
look for fulfillment of the promises made by God to Abraham. Judaism is
not about to change but the departure of Christians, including many
Christian Jews, and the appearance of the 144,000, will lead some chief
priests and elders of Judaism to accept the New Testament truth, that
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. During the first half of the seven
years worldwide persecution of Jews will force many to flee to Israel
then, at the mid-point of the seven years, when the beast is taken over
by Satan, there will be a mass exodus of Jews, from Israel, via the two
wings of a great eagle. I think this exodus will be to the U.S.
Following the departure of the Christians, millions of American
citizens, who will have heard about the rapture but who will have
pooh-poohed the idea, will suddenly realize what has happened and I
think there will be enough knowledge of the prophesies of the Revelation
of Jesus Christ available, along with the witnessing of the 144,000, to
tell them what is about to happen. The result, I think, will be a
national effort to complete the defenses proposed by President Bush and
the US will be in a position to offer sanctuary to those who flee from
Israel at the mid-point of the 7 years. Praise the Lord!

Charles Baker February, 2001

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